You know, I’m not surprised about that, and not in a good way. CR is part of RPG culture I’m not good with, and I’m totally unsurprised that people who were part of 5e are joining them.
All I can hope is that seeing Hasbro lose people will draw attention to other systems - or for Hasbro to make a marketing push on the Essence20 system in addition to (or instead of) d20.
I too, am curious. I could totally be on board with this comment, or I could totally not be on board with this comment. I do agree with the latter sentiment. There are some very creative and well thought-out systems out there.
The commodification and the desire for mass appeal are the top-level issues I have. I feel uncomfortable when I see the modern D&D branding on stuff in “normal” stores. It takes away the community and puts Hasbro in the central role, rather than the network of GMs who should be the majority influence. If I wanted a hobby with a company in charge, I would play Warhammer.
Now, on the community side, my biggest issue is with things I see as derived from CR. The lack of respect for simple theatre of the mind is a direct issue with the way I’ve always run and played since I left D&D. The tolerance and even acceptance of paid DMing also pisses me off in ways that make it very hard for me to remain civil.
Those are the big ones. There’s also the fact that D&D doesn’t seem to have the offramps it had since AD&D1 (and which admittedly went downhill when the Forge went out of the spotlight).
The commodification and the desire for mass appeal are the top-level issues I have. I feel uncomfortable when I see the modern D&D branding on stuff in “normal” stores. It takes away the community and puts Hasbro in the central role, rather than the network of GMs who should be the majority influence. If I wanted a hobby with a company in charge, I would play Warhammer.
Now, on the community side, my biggest issue is with things I see as derived from CR. The lack of respect for simple theatre of the mind is a direct issue with the way I’ve always run and played since I left D&D. The tolerance and even acceptance of paid DMing also pisses me off in ways that make it very hard for me to remain civil.
Those are the big ones. There’s also the fact that D&D doesn’t seem to have the offramps it had since AD&D1 (and which admittedly went downhill when the Forge went out of the spotlight).
The lack of respect for simple theatre of the mind is a direct issue with the way I’ve always run and played since I left D&D.
What do you mean by this?
The tolerance and even acceptance of paid DMing also pisses me off in ways that make it very hard for me to remain civil.
Why? Running a game is work, and not every group that wants to play has a good GM. How is it any different than commissioning art of your character or buying an adventure module? Don’t get me wrong, I prefer unpaid friends, but I’m blessed with multiple potential GMs in my group. Not everyone is so lucky, do they just not get to play? Or are they forced to nominate a GM who won’t enjoy it and won’t run an enjoyable game?
I mean that every time I’ve tried to run a game, either on tabletop (exceedingly rare now) or online, the demands from players are ridiculous compared to my expectations and what I set out as my intentions. I am not a voice actor. I’m decent at improv, but sometimes do need a moment to contemplate. I do not use images, music, battlemaps, miniatures, or any other equipment. Just dice, words, and imagination. This has gone from being the standard mode of play in the communities I’m accustomed to into a very niche thing that no one seems interested in anymore.
[Defense of Paid DMs]
At best, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m going to address the points I think I can without overcoming apoplexy first.
There are hundreds if not thousands of GM guides available. If you cannot or will not put in that level of investment, then run something GM-less, or work together to GM the game. Gary called DMs ‘referees’, and I think that model still holds up - no ref in a game is responsible for the whole field at every moment. Real referees switch up and have things like VAR or other systems. If one guy in the group is good at designing traps, let him design the traps and run them. If one person is good at storytelling, let them present the story. The person who knows combat best should adjudicate it. This is a game of cooperative fun. So, cooperate. Either that, or try something like Fiasco, Shadowrun Anarchy, Microscope, Space Bounty Blues, or something like that, and then move into refereeing a rules-light system like The Black Hack or a PbtA. Don’t be hemmed in by modern D&D (note that this ties into the ‘D&D has fewer offramps’ point above).
As far as the paid DM part, it’s very simple: This is a creative hobby. This is the time we have free together as friends, and RPGs have been some of the very few things in my life that has been an escape from the soul-crushing burden of working and money changing hands for every damn thing. Paid DMs turn it into a business, not a fun experience, and I consider their existence toxic to the community. Because after all, if some other schlub is making money doing a thing, why shouldn’t I charge money to do that thing? Why should I be the one doing free labor? And that’s the problem. It turns what should be creative, cooperative, storytelling with guard rails into a discussion of labor and capital and investment and all the crap that I want to avoid in the world via the escapism of RPGs. That paid person isn’t my friend anymore, he’s a paid service provider. But what KPIs is he measured by? ‘Fun’ isn’t quantifiable (much to Friend Computer’s chagrin), so, what? XP per session? Loot? Some other valueless measure which inevitably means nothing?
In short - no. I will reiterate, I believe that paid DMing is toxic to the community as a whole. It turns what should be an exercise in building and developing friendships into building and developing a business. It takes the party away from being a group of friends or fellow-travelers into a group of customers receiving shared service from a provider. It’s no different from the people you meet at the big table of a hibachi restaurant.
That’s before we get into how incredibly elitist it is by definition. Paid DMing takes away from the grassroots elements of the game. It puts a paywall between the player and the game. Any of the paid DMs I’ve seen have their players basically sign non-compete agreements, so they can’t just turn into a normal group without that DM - which means those players don’t join the larger community. So in every way I can oppose it, in every way I can hate it, I do.
I mean, this just seems really gatekeepy. You’re obviously allowed to play however you like, but I don’t see how the way others play affects you.
the demands from players are ridiculous compared to my expectations and what I set out as my intentions
That sounds like a communication issue. I’ve played fully tactical with battle mats and set pieces, and I’ve played fully theater of the mind, and I’ve never had an issue with player expectations as long as I communicate my intentions pre-session zero.
As far as the paid DM part, it’s very simple: This is a creative hobby.
So is art, so is adventure design. I still don’t see how it’s different from commissioning art of your character or buying a module.
Why stop at DM? Every group should invent their own system, carve their own dice, design their own adventures. It’s not very grassroots to use a system designed by an elitist corporation.
I’m into 3d printing. When the hobby started, there were not
commercial printers, you had to build one from scratch. Are we supposed to hate manufactured printers to preserve the creative integrity of the hobby?
I just don’t see the rationale of your preferences for how you like to play metastasizing into hatred. You’re allowed to play how you want, so is everyone else.
I don’t despise paid DMing as much as you do, but I agree that it’s negatively shifting the expectations of hobbyist/enthusiast DMs and commodifying what was originally a personal investment into a social group.
In addition, a paid DM is more inclined to make conditions favorable for the players… as they do not want to get fired from that role.
It’s true that DMing can be hard work and that the DM will spend many more hours on DnD than anyone else in the group, but last time I DM’ed, my friends ran a food rotation (usually big macs or taco bell) and I always ate for free :)
Burgers won’t make me fudge dice to keep the party happy, but a paycheck sure would.
You know, I’m not surprised about that, and not in a good way. CR is part of RPG culture I’m not good with, and I’m totally unsurprised that people who were part of 5e are joining them.
All I can hope is that seeing Hasbro lose people will draw attention to other systems - or for Hasbro to make a marketing push on the Essence20 system in addition to (or instead of) d20.
What do you mean by RPG culture that you’re not good with?
I too, am curious. I could totally be on board with this comment, or I could totally not be on board with this comment. I do agree with the latter sentiment. There are some very creative and well thought-out systems out there.
I’m sorry, I only feel like typing it once, please look up-thread, or here:
https://kbin.melroy.org/m/games@lemmy.world/t/995294/-/comment/7944352
This link goes to some login page for me when I click it
Back on PC now, copying it:
Could you elaborate on the aspects of the RPG culture you have a problem with? I’m just curious.
The commodification and the desire for mass appeal are the top-level issues I have. I feel uncomfortable when I see the modern D&D branding on stuff in “normal” stores. It takes away the community and puts Hasbro in the central role, rather than the network of GMs who should be the majority influence. If I wanted a hobby with a company in charge, I would play Warhammer.
Now, on the community side, my biggest issue is with things I see as derived from CR. The lack of respect for simple theatre of the mind is a direct issue with the way I’ve always run and played since I left D&D. The tolerance and even acceptance of paid DMing also pisses me off in ways that make it very hard for me to remain civil.
Those are the big ones. There’s also the fact that D&D doesn’t seem to have the offramps it had since AD&D1 (and which admittedly went downhill when the Forge went out of the spotlight).
What do you mean by this?
Why? Running a game is work, and not every group that wants to play has a good GM. How is it any different than commissioning art of your character or buying an adventure module? Don’t get me wrong, I prefer unpaid friends, but I’m blessed with multiple potential GMs in my group. Not everyone is so lucky, do they just not get to play? Or are they forced to nominate a GM who won’t enjoy it and won’t run an enjoyable game?
I mean that every time I’ve tried to run a game, either on tabletop (exceedingly rare now) or online, the demands from players are ridiculous compared to my expectations and what I set out as my intentions. I am not a voice actor. I’m decent at improv, but sometimes do need a moment to contemplate. I do not use images, music, battlemaps, miniatures, or any other equipment. Just dice, words, and imagination. This has gone from being the standard mode of play in the communities I’m accustomed to into a very niche thing that no one seems interested in anymore.
At best, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m going to address the points I think I can without overcoming apoplexy first.
There are hundreds if not thousands of GM guides available. If you cannot or will not put in that level of investment, then run something GM-less, or work together to GM the game. Gary called DMs ‘referees’, and I think that model still holds up - no ref in a game is responsible for the whole field at every moment. Real referees switch up and have things like VAR or other systems. If one guy in the group is good at designing traps, let him design the traps and run them. If one person is good at storytelling, let them present the story. The person who knows combat best should adjudicate it. This is a game of cooperative fun. So, cooperate. Either that, or try something like Fiasco, Shadowrun Anarchy, Microscope, Space Bounty Blues, or something like that, and then move into refereeing a rules-light system like The Black Hack or a PbtA. Don’t be hemmed in by modern D&D (note that this ties into the ‘D&D has fewer offramps’ point above).
As far as the paid DM part, it’s very simple: This is a creative hobby. This is the time we have free together as friends, and RPGs have been some of the very few things in my life that has been an escape from the soul-crushing burden of working and money changing hands for every damn thing. Paid DMs turn it into a business, not a fun experience, and I consider their existence toxic to the community. Because after all, if some other schlub is making money doing a thing, why shouldn’t I charge money to do that thing? Why should I be the one doing free labor? And that’s the problem. It turns what should be creative, cooperative, storytelling with guard rails into a discussion of labor and capital and investment and all the crap that I want to avoid in the world via the escapism of RPGs. That paid person isn’t my friend anymore, he’s a paid service provider. But what KPIs is he measured by? ‘Fun’ isn’t quantifiable (much to Friend Computer’s chagrin), so, what? XP per session? Loot? Some other valueless measure which inevitably means nothing?
In short - no. I will reiterate, I believe that paid DMing is toxic to the community as a whole. It turns what should be an exercise in building and developing friendships into building and developing a business. It takes the party away from being a group of friends or fellow-travelers into a group of customers receiving shared service from a provider. It’s no different from the people you meet at the big table of a hibachi restaurant.
That’s before we get into how incredibly elitist it is by definition. Paid DMing takes away from the grassroots elements of the game. It puts a paywall between the player and the game. Any of the paid DMs I’ve seen have their players basically sign non-compete agreements, so they can’t just turn into a normal group without that DM - which means those players don’t join the larger community. So in every way I can oppose it, in every way I can hate it, I do.
I mean, this just seems really gatekeepy. You’re obviously allowed to play however you like, but I don’t see how the way others play affects you.
That sounds like a communication issue. I’ve played fully tactical with battle mats and set pieces, and I’ve played fully theater of the mind, and I’ve never had an issue with player expectations as long as I communicate my intentions pre-session zero.
So is art, so is adventure design. I still don’t see how it’s different from commissioning art of your character or buying a module.
Why stop at DM? Every group should invent their own system, carve their own dice, design their own adventures. It’s not very grassroots to use a system designed by an elitist corporation.
I’m into 3d printing. When the hobby started, there were not commercial printers, you had to build one from scratch. Are we supposed to hate manufactured printers to preserve the creative integrity of the hobby?
I just don’t see the rationale of your preferences for how you like to play metastasizing into hatred. You’re allowed to play how you want, so is everyone else.
I’m in a mood right now, so I’m just going to cherry-pick. I’ll come back and give you a better response when I’m in a better mindset.
You’re absolutely right. D&D past AD&D1 should never have been the center of our hobby.
I don’t despise paid DMing as much as you do, but I agree that it’s negatively shifting the expectations of hobbyist/enthusiast DMs and commodifying what was originally a personal investment into a social group.
In addition, a paid DM is more inclined to make conditions favorable for the players… as they do not want to get fired from that role.
It’s true that DMing can be hard work and that the DM will spend many more hours on DnD than anyone else in the group, but last time I DM’ed, my friends ran a food rotation (usually big macs or taco bell) and I always ate for free :)
Burgers won’t make me fudge dice to keep the party happy, but a paycheck sure would.
TLDR I liked dnd before it was cool
Nah, it was always cool. It just wasn’t mainstream and turned into a business.
Paid DMing infuriates me.
Thank you for the reply. I was really into D&D a few years ago but my interest decreased when life shifted. I missed those days.